Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roy Ingram

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:22, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Roy Ingram[edit]

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Ingram was a competitor in the Olympics who did not win a medal, as such he does not meet our inclusion criteria. Neither of the two sources here have any text on him, they are just sports tables. I did searches in google, google books and google news archives. I found other Roy Ingrams mentioned, such as one who was a mayor of a small place in Alabama. As such there is no reason to assume people would be looking for this Roy Ingram and not the mayor in Alabama, so this is not a good cnadidate for redirect. John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:43, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Boxing, and South Africa. Shellwood (talk) 19:05, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to South Africa at the 1920 Summer Olympics#Boxing, per WP:PRESERVE, WP:ATD, WP:R#KEEP and WP:CHEAP. There could be sources from Ireland, seeing as he was born there, so I'll ask the Irish WP. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:38, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
~~Redirect to Boxing at the 1924 Summer Olympics – Welterweight~~ I agree with the idea of redirecting the article, but I think this is a better target. He lost his first fight at the 1920 Olympics. It was in the 1924 Games that he had his best performance--winning two fights to get into the quarterfinals before losing to the eventual gold medalist. Of course, if additional evidence is found that he meets WP:GNG, please let me know. Papaursa (talk) 00:31, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Thanks to the efforts of users Park3r and FOARP, I am striking my redirect vote and changing it to keep. There's now enough evidence of notability to, at the very least, give him the "benefit of the doubt" about meeting WP:GNG. I think a variety of sources from the pre-internet age is pretty convincing. Papaursa (talk) 04:00, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comment~~ Keep I found this article from Supersport, which is a WP:RS about him [1]. This one also describing a rivalry he had [2]. The fact that articles about him were written in a RS decades after his death is an indicator that we should look more carefully for sources, keeping WP:NTEMP in mind. UPDATE: he was South African middleweight champion in 1926, according to the second Supersport article. UPDATE 2: searching for “Roy Ingram South African boxer” on Google Books gives results indicating he was South African middleweight champion and well known at the time Park3r (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Both of the sources you give come from the same website, which would mean they count as one source. That is not enough to meet WP:GNG. The books I saw didn't have what I would consider significant and independent coverage of him, but I could have missed something. Papaursa (talk) 23:35, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Finding any online-accessible RS from a South Africa is a minor miracle nowadays, finding two separate unpaywalled and non link-rotted online sources is exceedingly unlikely. Which is I needed to do a more than cursory search in Google Books. WP:NSPORTS seems to anticipate that finding sources for athletes in the distant past will be difficult: For subjects in the past where it is more difficult to locate sources, it may be necessary to evaluate the subject's likely notability based on other persons of the same time period with similar characteristics. Would a national boxing champion have been notable at the time, passing WP:NTEMP? It would seem so, but I’m not an expert on boxing, either now, or in the past.Park3r (talk) 11:54, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As best I can tell, being South African boxing champion would not be enough to show WP notability. I do empathize with your trying to find pre-internet sources. Papaursa (talk) 23:03, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep- based on Park3r's findings. Ingratis (talk) 23:25, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 14:19, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 01:58, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The two sources listed above put this into "benefit of the doubt" territory. This is particularly because the sources include an extensive quote from a book called "The Fighters" by Chris Greyvenstein - a book that exists and does appear to mention Ingram extensively, though the full page cannot be seen. It appears that sources do exist per WP:NEXIST. Additionally he appears to have been the subject of a very short, poorly OCR'ed story in Variety magazine in September 1926 - If a London magazine wrote about his retirement in South Africa due to bad hands my inclination is that there is likely a lot else out there about him. FOARP (talk) 16:29, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Per newly discovered sources. They are enough to satisfy GNG. Smartyllama (talk) 17:54, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.